You can find Jorn Trommelen here : Youtube : Facebook …
Thank you so much for
being here! For those who don't know
you Jorn can you introduce yourself ? yeah I'm a
PhD student in muscle metabolism so our
lab investigates mostly how with
nutrition and exercise can keep your
muscles healthy. We do this in a
variety of populations. This can be: how
do we keep the elderly fit?
People who end up in the hospital:
how do we get them fit out of the
Hospital? Then my interest in with a few
other guys here is mostly athletes so
how do we improve performance in
athletes? How do they recover faster? How
do they build more muscle? Stuff like
that so I would say the majority of our
research is on protein supplementation.
How with protein, athletes get
bigger stronger faster, but we also do
some research in carbohydrate
Metabolism. What should
endurance athletes eat after a race for
Example. Aright, excellent so if I may
Sum it up : anything related to muscle
protein synthesis, you're kind of an
expert in this field. It can be a for
elderly people and athlete. That's
something you're really into.
I have a few questions: my first
question would be how could you in
general optimize protein distribution
and how does it relate to muscle protein
Synthesis? Can talk about this?
yeah so the basic summary of muscle
protein synthesis is that I always like
to give the example that your
your muscle is like a wall and then on
one side bricks are being added to the
wall and then the process of adding
those bricks is called muscle protein
synthesis so muscle protein synthesis
makes the wall your muscles bigger
however at the same time there's
opposing process so walls are being
Removed. So bricks are being removed
from the wall that's called muscle
protein breakdown. However the speed at
which those bricks are being removed
from the wall it's always more or less
the same so muscle protein synthesis can
drastically increase during the
day and by increasing muscle protein
synthesis you can make your muscles
bigger. Now there's two main stimulii
on protein synthesis. One is exercise
so going to the gym for example and
second is eating and then mostly protein now not
all protein is the same there's
like three main variables that determine
how well protein stimulates muscle.
protein synthesis that's obviously how
much protein you eat the quality of the
protein, for example, you eat a
steak so animal protein or a soy drink
for example plant-based protein and then
we see that animal-based protein is
usually a little bit better and the
third variable is when you eat it and
how you distribute it throughout the day.
So there is some research that suggests
that's a little bit more effective to
spread it out throughout today than
having everything in just one or two big
meals. Okay excellent you mentioned
three points. As a general
take away: the quantity, the quality
and also at what time and how many times?
As a basic suggestion, what would it be
for … let's say let's just take your
example, if you would like to optimize
muscle protein synthesis and you train three
to four times per week, how would
you do this? Yeah so let's start
with how much should you eat. In the
field we like to express
protein needs on a per meal basis so
that means we don't really necessarily
give recommendations like you should eat
that much in a day, because I already
mentioned that when you eat can also
influence the results so you cannot
really see those two separately. Then
we know that about 20 grams of protein
gives a near maximal effect on muscle
protein synthesis. Now if you go up to 40
gram you see that most protein synthesis
goes up by about 10 to 20 additional
percents, so it depends a little bit on
you personally if you think that's worth
the effort so if you're just a regular
gym goer and you have three to four
meals with 20 gram of protein that's
pretty solid. On the other hand, if you're a
competitive athlete, I would recommend trying
to hit at least 40 grams of protein in
each meal because the results will
likely be slightly better. Also, pretty
interesting, recently a study
came out. It was the first study where you
quite clearly saw that 40 gr
did better than 20 gram, so that's
the study where the 40 gram was twenty
percent better and the author's thing
that the reason was that it was a first
study in which the subjects did a whole
body resistance training. So they think
if you train more muscle mass then you
will need a little bit more protein that
sounds quite logical not necessarily as
logical as as as it seems because in the
same study they found that bigger guys
didn't need more protein than smaller
guys, so not everything that
instinctively seems correct always
appears to be correct, but still based on
that study if you do very intensive
training so if you train arms
then perhaps 20 grams is enough, if you
do a whole body routine, I would
definitely try to hit at least 40 grams
in each meal. And again if you're a
serious athlete there's really no reason
not to go up to 40 grams, so I
would try to hit at least 40 grams of
20-40 grams during the three main
meals, so breakfast lunch and dinner and
and that should optimize muscle protein
synthesis during most of the day. However,
for a lot of people dinner is their last
big meal of the day and afterwards they
don't really eat for 10 to 12 hours
until it's breakfast again and our group
has done some research that suggests
that it might be a good idea to add a
forth meal prior to sleep. Now this is a
bit of a cultural thing so if in your
culture, there are some cultures where
people have like a huge dinner just an
hour before they go to bed, well that's
more or less the same as pre-sleep
protein supplementation so basically
there's three to four meals you have to
distribute them in a way that makes the
most sense for you. Same for people who
skip breakfast, adding some supplemental
protein at breakfast can be very
beneficial for those people. So in
general my recommendation is the most
basic recommendation is try to hit at
least under 20 grams of protein during the day
ideally quite a bit of that from animal
sources which is a little bit more
effective and then after that, try to, if
you want to optimize results, try to
distribute it in three to ideally 4-5
meals with each 30 to 40 grams
of protein. Alright thank you!
Just one specific question about this:
You tend to give recommendations more
about how much protein per meal you
should get and how to spread it and not
with the total normalized by body weight
or lean body mass for example. Can you
say what's your take on this ?
Yeah, so there's only one study
that has directly investigated where
they had a two groups one group with
bigger dudes so we had more lean body
mass and one group
smaller, a smaller amount of lean body
mass and they saw that those two groups
responded exactly the same to protein. So
you would think that if you give 20
grams of protein maybe for a smaller guy
that's more than enough but that the
bigger guy that's just suboptimal right
just as that a bigger guy needs more
galleries, but that didn't really seem to
be the case the regardless of size
people responded exactly the same now
that's likely related to that people of
course think of the analogy that I used
earlier that protein are the bricks for
muscle growth but protein is not just
the building block for muscle, protein is
actually a signal for muscle growth and
the amount of protein you need to
optimize that signal is much higher than
how much bricks you need so if you just
had 10 grams of protein you already have
more than enough bricks to build muscle,
but you need more protein basically to
to tell your muscle let's actually start
using those bricks, so I think that's why
why there is a difference between what
we feel instinctively and the results we
see in in the study. Okay pretty much
like a trigger or something.
Yeah exactly. One analogy I've
once heard is that the protein is the
trigger, that's like the the boss at work
that tells you get to work and the bus
only gets motivated at high amounts of
protein while a small amount of protein
already gives enough bricks right. Okay
excellent, I'll remember this one and
perfect so, also one of them one of the
subject I wanted to develop with
you was a glycogen. People are usually
really interested in a glycogen also
specifically when we talk about nutrient
timing, they think especially around the
workout for example they should optimize
a glycogen repletion well basically I'd
like to know what's your take on this in
general, and for who it's really
relevant or useful? Or is it even necessary?
So yeah can you talk about glycogen? Yeah
so I'll quickly go back to the
protein because there you have the same
concept where some people suggest that
you should make sure that you have your
protein shake immediately after exercise
to get the maximum effect they also call
it nutrient timing. And while
it's true that there's a synergy between
exercise and protein. You use more of
your protein if you have done exercise
before it. It isn't really like an on/off
switch, so for about at least 24 hours
and likely up to 48-72 hours after
resistance exercise, you respond better
to your protein. So it's not really a
matter of oh "I need to have that shake
immediately after exercise" as long as
you make sure that throughout the day
after exercise you get your protein, you're
solid and if you follow the protein
distribution recommendations, you
likely always have protein around your
workout, because either it's after your
workout or you still have some protein
in your system from a meal before your
workout. Now with carbohydrates and
endurance exercise, it's a little bit
different because there is a real – what
we call – "the window of opportunity" that
if you eat carbohydrates after endurance
training, muscle glycogen repletion is
much faster than if you wait a few hours
before you eat some carbohydrates. So if
you want the fastest possible recovery
and then based on muscle glycogen you
should definitely eat carbohydrates as
soon as possible after your workout. Then
the question becomes: for whom is this
relevant? So if we start again with
resistance training,
muscle glycogen is not that relevant.
First of all, for example, our lab has
done a study where we did a relatively
high volume 16 sets of leg exercises
and that only depleted muscle glycogen
for about thirty percent, so even if you
a very high volume training, you won't
really deplete all that much glycogen
and it will never really become limiting
and especially if you do that type of if
you do 16 sets of legs today, you're
definitely not going to hit your legs
tomorrow again. So fast muscle glycogen
repletion is not really that relevant
for resistance training. The only people
who train with high frequency
they train with lower volumes
anyway and it's very likely that those
muscle glycogen stores will be repleted
in 24 hours if you just did like one to
five sets anyway. For endurance
athletes it's a little bit different. For
example, think of two friends where you're
cycling most of the day and you have
just a few hours to eat and then you
have to sleep and then next day you have
to perform again. For them it's
absolutely critical to rebuild our
muscle glycogen as fast as possible,
because they only have a very short
recovery window. And well luckily
carbohydrate supplementation is very
effective, so you should eat about 60
grams of carbohydrates each hour. Your
gut cannot really absorb more
carbohydrates, more than 60 grams per
hours, so you can try to eat more but
that doesn't really work all what
happens is it stays in your stomach and
you'll just get sick. However, we
have done some research these recent years
that shows that if you have different
types of carbohydrates, they are absorbed
via different mechanisms in the gut, so
they basically, you got an entrance
in the gut for
males and one for females, so if you
try to enter the gut with mens and females
it is faster than the same amount of
people who are just mens trying to go
through the ONE door right? So, we call
this multiple transportable
carbohydrates and then you have two
types you have glucose which is
basically the main carbohydrates in the
diet and you have fructose. And these use
different transporters so we have shown
that if you have combination of these
two carbohydrates you can absorb
carbohydrates at a higher rate and
therefore you can rebuild glycogen
faster, but it's not entirely that simple.
Now it sounds like "just have a carbohydrate
mixed and then, more carbohydrates will be
absorbed so I'll recover faster! But the
fructose: it is absorbed in the gut, but
then it goes to the liver, but the
liver doesn't release the fructose.
So the fructose gets converted to
lactate and lactate has a very bad
reputation. People think it's responsible
for the burning feeling of exercise, but
that's actually not true like they
doesn't cause that burning sensation and
doesn't cause fatigue. However lactate
cannot be used to rebuild muscle
glycogen, so if you add fructose to
glucose you do absorb more carbohydrates,
but those extra carbohydrates… you cannot
use them to rebuild muscle glycogen.
However, as I said, fructose is still
absorbed and transported to the liver. Some
part is transformed into lactate, but the
other part is transformed in liver
glycogen. So by adding fructose, still
your liver is recovering faster, so it's
still beneficial to have that mixture of
carbohydrates. So the protocol that
we now know is more or less the best we
have at this point in time is about 60
grams of glucose, maybe a little bit
higher if you're bigger.
There is some research, in
contrast to the protein, that bigger guys
can absorb a little bit more glucose and
then add about 20 grams of fructose to
replete your liver a little bit faster.
Excellent thank you very much for this,
so could you
normalize this time carbohydrates by
lean body mass or by body weight or … ?
Yeah, so the
guidelines for optimal muscle glycogen
depletion are 1.2 grams of glucose per
kilogram of body weight. It's not based
on lean body mass which you might
think makes more sense right, because you
think well if you have more muscle that
you need more carbohydrates, but it's
actually based on if you're bigger, so if
your body weight is bigger you have a
bigger gut and therefore you can absorb
the carbohydrates faster in your gut so
it's more based on that bigger guys have
a bigger gut then based on the amount of
muscle mass you have. So it's about 1.2
grams of glucose per minute and
then you would add a maximum of 0.3 gr
of fructose to make sure
that your liver recovers as fast as
possible as well. Alright thank
you very much … Maybe one thing that's
important to say Those carbohydrates
intakes are very high and for people
who are not used to that, it's not a good
idea. You should slowly work up to it,
because you can more or less train your
guts to get better at
absorbing carbohydrates, so your gut has to
get used to it a little bit, then the
other the other thing that's important
to say is, there is some research that
suggests that if you eat a lot of
carbohydrates directly after endurance
training your body more or less gets
lazy
the training of the adaptation is a
little bit less, so it's often suggested
that you should not always eat
carbohydrates immediately after a
training session where the goal is to
get as much as possible out of the
training session, but if your goal is to
recover as fast as possible, for example
if you have a new event later in the day
or the next day, then you should eat
carbohydrates. So it's not necessarily
that post-exercise carbohydrates are
always beneficial, it depends a little bit
on the context. Alright excellent thank you
very much, so the difference between the
guy seeking performance in short-term or
long-term adaptations will be a
different strategies for this. Exactly.
Excellent, alright umh and so if I
talk about the hardcore bodybuilder who
would like to train for a really really
high volume and you know a
split work out and they even want
to train multiple times per day. Would there
– in this case – be relevant to talk
about glycogen or even for this type of
hardcore profile… not even not even close?
Well so what i mentioned that
carbohydrates might reduce training
adaptations and that's only relevant for
endurance training. Because, basically
with endurance training one of the main
things you're doing is learning your
body to become better at burning fat, as
fuel and when you give carbohydrates
right away after training your body
knows like "oh there will always be
carbohydrates so i don't really have to
adapt to burning fat that much". However,
for resistance training, there's
absolutely no problem with eating
carbohydrates after your training. So
yeah, so for serious bodybuilders, they can
basically eat as many carbohydrates as
they want as long as they don't get fat.
So yeah for high volume high
frequency bodybuilder yeah they should
definitely eat good amount of carbs.
Alright, based on the the whole day
to make sure they can keep going
according to their daily caloric intake.
Exactly. Okay excellent, so um
well that was very clear at least for me.
I hope it's going to be for everyone, but
I think it was the case, thank you. Do you have
anything that you would like to to add
on a fresh topic or a myth that is a
hanging around and you would like to
talk about this? Oh man there's so
many myths let's see … just pick
one maybe your favorite a couple of your
favorite one or just one of your
articles they talk about many. Yeah it's
hard to say. Ask me a
specific question about what
…give me a bro myth and I'll tell you
what to think about. Okay, perfect um
one of my favorite one would be probably
you should – for body composition and to
optimise muscle protein synthesis,
you absolutely don't want
to eat carbs after six that's for me
a typical one. Is it true is it not?
Why would it be wrong why would it be
right? Yes ahh that's, that's again
something where people go by their
instinct and your instinct says like
after six you just lay on the couch a
little bit you watch the television and
then you're going to bed so your body
isn't really doing anything, so if you
give it a lot of fuel, if you give a lot
of carbohydrates it's going to store
everything as fat. But it doesn't really
work like that, so it's much more about
that the daily balance of calories. So if
you hardly any calories of carbohydrates
during the day, that just means that your
glycogen stores are not fully filed
So then if you eat a lot of
carbohydrates late at night, they're not
going into your fat stores, they're going
to fill up your glycogen stores first
right. Alternatively, if you would eat a
lot of carbohydrates early in the day
and that just means that you don't have
any space later in the day, but it is
really about that daily balance.
Your body doesn't have a clock where it
says "oh yeah it's now sleep time so I'm
not going to work anymore so I'll just
store it as fat" maybe if we
then talked about myths is that the
biggest myth ever is that you can hack
your body. So basically any theory that
is like "oh if you just avoid insulin or
if you just avoid this food, then you
hack the body and this and this happens".
Like basically our body is millions of
years of evolution of basically "anti hack",
our body is made so that we cannot trick
it, because otherwise we would have died
in evolution. If it was just a trick with
insulin, everyone would die if they did not ever
had some carbohydrates in their diet.
So our body is millions of years of
evolution to not starve and every theory
that suggests that you can hack it yeah
yeah they need to read the evolution
theory. Yeah sure okay all right thank
you very much. I wanted to talk about the
insulin model of obesity as well, and
I completely agree, anything that simplifies
everything to just one bad thing – exactly –
it cannot be right. The thing is,
the problem is, I don't know if half of
the people who make those claims believe
them, but the thing is, it's very
difficult to sell a book that says "you
need to eat less train harder do
especially squats like the super hard
exercise only these very boring veggies"
like who's gonna buy that book right?
So if you if you market a hack, you give
people hope and that's the problem
that yeah a lot of people fall for the
marketing because they know they cannot
put in the effort they need to put in so
they want that results so badly
that they just more or less choose to
believe oh we can hack the body. But
unfortunately, yeah basically the what
I'd like to say here is that the long road is
the short road, because you can try 20 hacks
in 20 years and you'll only be in worse
shape. while if you just try to do some
effort so eat a little bit cleaner, train
at least a little bit, over the years you
will improve. So doing the hard thing is
the only road to success! Excellent, so it
would be… very depressive message
from… it's … well it's – it's the most
important one anyway, because you can see
everywhere on youtube like "the three
best hacks" for your health for your
muscle for your … whatever you want and
and if you watch how many times these
videos are viewed, it's just crazy how
this goes just their they're better than
us at giving a message, so we should be
able to do something like "the three best
science evidence to … something"
and try to be as good as they are better
yeah I'm glad that you put it this way,
because uh yeah we wanted … a no
– sorry for the word – a "no BS" video and
that's why I thank you so much for the
quality of this content.

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